‘Men have a tendency to eat meat so they’re perceived as manly, and changing that gender stereotype could lead to a reduction in carne consumption, according to a UCLA study’

We are living in a climate emergency with animal agriculture being the leading cause of most of the environmental problems that we are facing today. This world urgently needs more selfless protectors and less toxic masculinity: for the animals, the planet & for your own health.

#masculinity #vegan #food #gender

@moshtodon it's interesting. I'm strictly vegetarian but my partner is not (due to iron deficiency). No matter how often we clarify, people assume it's reversed: that she's the vegetarian and I eat meat.

I often wonder whether it's because of stereotypes, and I'm kinda feeling like yes, probably it is.


@BlacKernel I didn't feel right about killing a living creature when we have the luxury of alternatives, and the industrialization of constant death seems morbid. It's become an ecological concern now, but at the time I wasn't fully aware of that angle.

Honestly it's habit now, and I hardly think of it as a choice. It's just kinda what I do.

@klaatu @BlacKernel I don't want to sound rude or judgemental or anything but have you considered veganism, because a lot of vegetarians don't know about how cruel the dairy, the egg and the honey industries are: youtube.com/watch?v=pUsqS1k8Bu

@moshtodon @klaatu I too wish not to sound rude, but aren't plants living creatures as well? In fact, in a lot of ways, the same arguments that can be made against cruelty to animals can be made with cruelty to plants. The biggest difference being that humans are not able to hear plants scream.

I am not against veganism or vegetarianism, I just have never understood this particular argument. The study of both animal and plants ability to experience what we would call cruelty is in its early phases, and some evidence (Such as https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/507590v4 ) suggest that plants can also experience a form of pain.

I am not trying to "change your mind" or anything, as I have heard many other compelling arguments for the benefit of vegetarianism and veganism and, as you said, it's a habit anyway at this point. I just wanted to get your thoughts on this.

@BlacKernel @klaatu haha don't worry, in 6 years as vegan I heard everything so please ask me what you want 😊
AFAIK plants can't suffer because they lack a nervous system or consciousness to experience suffer (and makes sense from an evolutionary perspective)
Plants are incredible living beings though :)

@BlacKernel @klaatu But let's imagine that they could suffer and cutting a potato would be the same as cutting a dog's throat or a pig's throat. Even in this scenario the best thing to do would be to become vegan because it requires the less amount of plants to live.

@BlacKernel @klaatu We all have an impact in to the world, but in order to eat animals we need to breed them. These animals don’t use all of these plants in order to grow muscle and absorb nutrients, they need to keep warm themselves, fight diseases, move (if they can), get birth or lay hens (which are very high energy demanding). This means that it is highly inefficient. This is why is so unsustainable ourworldindata.org/environment

@moshtodon @klaatu This is the most compelling argument for me as even mostly strict herbivores, such as cows, will resort to some forms of carnivism if they need to satisfy certain dietary needs, such as low phosphorus in the grass, but, on average, will opt for eating plants as they are closer to the energy source, the sun, in the food chain.
@moshtodon @klaatu ( Not to mention the whole feeding food to our food thing which is just kind of insane to me. Most grazing animals can process plant life that we cannot, turning plants which we can't eat into animals that we can, which is one of the only logical reasons to eat animals in the first place. )

@BlacKernel @klaatu but there is no way of producing animal products for everyone to eat if cows are bred that way youtube.com/watch?v=OSAz-A7S8o

But at the end of the day animals are individuals with clear interests in avoiding suffering and death and consuming animal products implies imposing suffering and death onto them for unnecessary reasons.

@moshtodon @klaatu Just to address the two things you said that actually responded to what I said, just because something hurts all the time for a human, chronic pneumonia for instance, doesn't mean we don't feel it because, from an evolutionary perspective, it is better to err on the side of caution. Make things that don't need to hurt us hurt instead of making things that need to hurt us not.

And I agree with not having enough room for everyone to eat beef, but I also think that beef should be a niche thing for people whose microbiome has adapted to it or who need a cheaper complete protein source than mixing several different plants which can get expensive from a supply chain perspective. This is also a very good argument for why society should restructure food production to be more in line with nutrition, but since market availability determines market preference, that probably won't happen anytime soon.

The thing with the lion was non-sequitor. I agree with it, but I wasn't really saying that just because animals do something ergo we should do something. What I was saying is that obligate herbivores are quite rare if they exist at all, as herbivores can and sometimes must extract nutrition from other animals at times, so having a niche market for meat could be necessary or desired for health reasons in certain places. But even giving the meat industry every benefit, it shouldn't even be half the size as it is today.

My main and underlying point is that it is no more unethical to eat plants as animals as every reason, apart from necessity, which is a terrible moral argument for many reasons. Just as a quick overview, one could argue "necessity" or "non necessity" for just about anything by shifting the goal post. For instance, eating animals is necessary to not disrupt my microbiome but not absolutely necessary for my survival, although I would have to find a way to modify my microbiome in order to be properly nourished. And eating plants in some quantity may be necessary for survival, but what is it that makes survival necessary? And even if you try to push that point as obvious, why not try to synthesize nutrients from rocks or minerals? Etc.

@BlacKernel @klaatu we can be 100% healthy (sometimes even healthier) with a plant based diet and killing animals is way more unethical as I said above. There is no reason to keep doing it. If there is a point where synthesizing nutrients from rocks is an option then we can consider it, in the meanwhile we are living in a world where trillions of animals are killed for pleasure each year while killing ourselves in both health and environmental ways.

@moshtodon @klaatu Not everyone has the same dietary restriction. Disregarding allergic concerns, what I have been saying multiple times about microbiome has actually killed people by changing their diet too quickly. You are correct that if someone is raised and nurtured from birth with a plant based diet, they are likely to be healthier, there are many considerations, from iron deficiency to allergies, that could make meat based options more healthy for those individuals.

@BlacKernel @klaatu I'm not saying it has to be changed quickly although I'd like to see if in this particular scenario that could be a thing. In today's age it's widely accepted that Veganism may be healthier than a meat-eating diet. Here's a wiki I made myself with sources directly from the world's largest Health, Nutrition and Dietary organizations (so from non-biased organizations): reddit.com/r/MyOwnVeganWiki/wi
Please, I think it's time to consider stop eating animals

@moshtodon @klaatu I really don't disagree with you at all apart from the ethics angle. I acknowledge that a well planned and systemic shift to veganism would be better for everyone in most every circumstance. There are some outliers for at least allergen reasons, people who are allergic to plant based proteins for instance, but in general the only thing I have a hard disagreement about is the ethics of it.

And, for the record, I have been trying to switch for over 10 years, but I can't afford to miss work at this point in my life and I've gone months with vomiting and full body aches from the switch.

@BlacKernel @klaatu If you want some help, here's some resources

These challenges (some of them include personal mentorship and dietitian team):

- Challenge22.com
- VeganBootcamp.org
- Veganuary.com

- reddit.com/r/vegan
- r/VeganFitness
- r/MyOwnVeganWiki/wiki
- r/AnimalRightsAdvocates
- r/EatCheapAndVegan

HappyCow.net to search vegan restaurants or stores

@BlacKernel @klaatu Following vegans like Earthling Ed, Humane Hancock, Cosmic Skeptic or Cheap Lazy Vegan on social media and this great discord server discord.gg/2ghD4cdzbx (there's like 1k vegans and 3k non vegans).

@moshtodon @klaatu The only real problem with this argument comes down to what amounts to theology. Weather or not killing a plant is the same as killing an animal is the same as killing a person and weather or not there is an acceptable number of people, animals, or plants one can kill for the sake of ones own survival. Pragmatism in morality is a pretty slippery slope, in my experience.

@BlacKernel @klaatu sure, but a lion eat other animals to survive, we don't, we kill only for pleasure since eating animals is just an option. But even if they did not do that for survival, just because a lion kills another animal, it doesn't justify us doing the same thing. Lions also kill their babies, but it doesn't justify infanticide

@moshtodon @klaatu That makes sense from a human perspective, not from an evolutionary one. Pain evolved in order to provide an aversion to harm and death which are two things which plants can still experience, so, from an evolutionary perspective, it would make sense for plants to feel some form of pain.

We already have a lot of evidence that plants have a memory, another thing which is generally thought to be a nervous system only task ( https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40626-020-00181-y ) and there is no logical reason to believe pain is any different.

@BlacKernel @klaatu but it makes sense if you can do anything about it. If there's a fire, it doesn't make sense for a plant to suffer when there is no option to scape from it

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