@atoponce That's annoying. Because a douch (Enrico here) presents the most stupid argument - or troll against this rushed and unproven yet vaccine (long term people, long term!) - people like Linus jump into the place with sounded argument but discard the fact that we don't have the data, we are close to summer so, case drops AND this disease is mild for most!

Whatever the long term effects of the various vaccines might br, they are likely a pittance compared to the long term effects of COVID-19. (Writing this from a vaccination center where I just got vaccinated 💉)

- First: "Whatever" is not acceptable. I do hope you are not MD.
- Second: Show me the data about the long term effects of COVID-19 (severity, demographic, etc...)
- Third: 0.04% of the global population died allegedly of the COVID19. When I say "allegedly" I don't pretend COVID does not kill but it might be not the only/main factor in most cases.
- Fourth: Where is the hurry?



The hurry is that people are dying and the virus is mutating... Ultimately, it seems like most "intelligent" arguments against getting vaccinated boil down to "no amount of risk is worth protecting others." Which I find quite antisocial.

There is known safe treatment for Covid, vax not needed. No known treatments for side effects of vax. Vax uses gene therapy technology. Recovery rate of C19 is 99.8%. majority of those who died where: over 70yo, obese, underlying conditions.
All the above is verifiable.
It's not about the virus!
@hicks @atoponce

The recovery rate for mRNA vaccines is 100%. Old People and obese people are people too, who also deserve not to die.
@hicks @atoponce

@awaspnest There are people too indeed and for them the balance Benefit/Risk would make sense.

@Horizon_Innovations @atoponce

No one deserves to die. According to official reporting, over 5k in US & over 12k in Europe have died from C19 vax, needlessly. HCQ & ivermectin both work well & don't have a side effect of death.
@hicks @atoponce

@Horizon_Innovations @awaspnest @hicks


5,208 have died from 302,000,000 vaccinations in the United States, or a rate of 0.0017%.

596,572 deaths from 33,259,537 confirmed cases in the United States, or a race of 1.79%.

That's an unvaccinated death rate of 1,000 times, or three full orders of magnitude compared to those who are vaccinated.

The vaccinations are safe and effective. Stop spreading antivax FUD.

I'm not antivax in general. I am against gene therapy drugs that aren't needed. Your figures show those who died from C19 without treatment of ivermectin or HCL, so the survival rate should be higher. The swine flu vax was pulled at 53 deaths, how many more should die before this "vax" should be pulled? How many "vax" deaths are ok as collateral damage, "for the greater good"? And the "vax" trials don't finish until 2023!

@awaspnest @hicks

I'm not an expert–I'm just doing my best to echo the consensus of experts (Which is that the all COVID Vaccines released so far are safe/effective) I understand why you think those links say that there are Covid vaccines utilizing gene therapy, but if you read them they don't.

@Horizon_Innovations @atoponce
asgct.org/research/news/novemb really does seem to indicate that the Vacinee Candidates (at that point) were utilizing gene therapy—However, this indication isn't enough overcome the actual text + videos on the page which clearly show that the genes are not modified in cells receiving the mRNA.

academic.oup.com/intimm/advanc Does have "utilizing gene therapy technology" in the title, but if you read more of the paper, you see that they are stating that they are using technology developed for gene therapy, but not modifying the genes in anyway. Nowhere does it indicate that any approved vaccines are modifying cells' genes.

"Gene therapy is a technique that modifies a person’s genes to treat or cure disease."

These vaccines are less invasive than SARS-CoV-2, because viruses infect your cells with DNA/RNA in order to take control, but aren't concerned with whether if you (or the cell) survive or not.

"When infected, a host cell is forced to rapidly produce thousands of copies of the original virus."

Obligatory xkcd: xkcd.com/2397/

I'm not here to argue, just help people think beyond the narrative. & Dr Fauci lied!
I'll leave you with this:
When an injection puts synthetic RNA (genes) into your cells to produce a spiked protein that's meant to illicit an immune response. 1. your cells are not meant to produce a spiked protein because 2. They are a toxin.
The C19 "vax" 1. does not stop infection, 2. does not stop transmission. These 2 are what vaccines are meant to do.
Given these details, what is this injection?

@Horizon_Innovations I don't mind going back and forth with you! I think this is an important topic.
I really see where the confusion is coming from here: Yes, mRNA enters the cell, but it's interpreted by the ribosome (3), and does not enter the nucleus where the genes are kept (1).
"The messenger RNA from two of the first types of COVID-19 vaccines does enter cells, but not the nucleus of the cells where DNA resides."

@Horizon_Innovations To your other points:
1) Your cells are quite flexible in what they can do, if you get Covid-19 they'll be producing the same spike protein + a lot more.
2) The efficacy of these vaccines has been answered elsewhere in this thread, but look at case study consider Israel: ourworldindata.org/coronavirus

Finally, as a note about Dr. Fauci: I think this is a lot bigger than one person, or even one country.
scientists and governments across the world (many of whom aren't that friendly with each-other) have come to an agreement about the danger of Covid-19 and the usefulness of these vaccines to save lives.
If this is conspiracy, it's required millions of researchers, medical professionals, and government workers working in unison to cover it up.

@awaspnest Again, while we should appreciate details about this vaccine, this is the wrong discussion IMHO.
Like @Horizon_Innovations said: there's no proof it stops infection and transmission. That's enough to me.
This kind of rush and new target to reach is just a political move in front of a mild disease - for 99.x% of the population.

@hicks @Horizon_Innovations Actually, you might be surprised to learn that the effect of these vaccines on transmission and infection has been studied, and they do greatly reduce transmission and infection.




biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/20 (Animal study 🐈)

There are also many articles summarizing these results.

@hicks @Horizon_Innovations Also, I'd like to (again) address something that you keep coming back to: The danger of COVID-19. We should not try to downplay the millions of deaths from COVID-19 only because millions more survive.

Even though this isn't a civilization ending plague, we have a chance to try to save lives. You've stated before, that the elderly, sick, and disabled are most at risk here. If you aren't fighting for the protection of those less fortunate that you, what are you doing?

@awaspnest @Horizon_Innovations @atoponce You're part of reason the technology sector is shit. Stop that. Stop trying to "echo the consensus" of experts, just link to the expert's arguments without your own bullshit thrown in.


596k deaths are not COVID deaths ... You should also look at the ages of each targeted statistic ...

@mcread The United States will pass 600,000 confirmed COVID deaths very soon of ~33,400,000 confirmed cases, according to John Hopkins.


@mcread That Johns Hopkins tracker is only tracking COVID related cases, vaccinations, and deaths. So no, those numbers do not reflect non-COVID deaths.

@atoponce Are you not interested to find out ? How can you seriously look at only the covid number ?

@mcread Find out what? We're in a pandemic. Of course I'm focused on COVID stats. Why wouldn't I be?



nevermind. Keep focusing. Whatever gets you through the night.

@mcread @atoponce Torvalds is pushing the vaccine agenda because Linux Foundation is working on a digital vaccine passport in partnership with IBM. I use FreeBSD anyway.

@mcread I think I understand what you're implying here: What if COVID-19 deaths are being miss-attributed? It's a difficult question to answer as most jurisdictions count COVID-19 deaths differently.

Epidemiologists can use the variation between these counting methods to create error-bars which give us a general idea how far off our overall count could be. Ultimately though, COVID-19 death totals just come down to an estimation.




I'm not worried that people are just counting covid deaths, I'm more worried that people don't even wonder about the numbers related to the other deaths, and if anyone asks they become public enemy number 1 and the killer of all dear ones ... This is not healthy ..

@awaspnest I'm also terribly worried that in the medical academic publications sector there was a serious reliability and replicability problem with a scary high percentage of published studies. ...

Another thing that worries me is that ( in Europe at least ) there was a huge problem with deaths in hospitals caused by nosocomial infections, and all these numbers are now ( yes, you guessed it ) ZERO .

@mcread I'm having trouble checking the rates for nosocomial infections over time for any large EU country right now (maybe I'm using the wrong keywords). But I have found papers suggesting that the rates have fallen dramatically in recent years.

The replication crisis is really important! I totally agree that we need more boring science. While I can't fault anyone for not wanting to take a vaccine, I hopefully we can all agree spreading fear about it is unhealthy.

@awaspnest arguably fear is better than believing everything we're being told.

@mcread I guess the point I was trying to get at wasn't that we should turn our brains off, but that this is complex topic, and our emotions might betray us. It's important not to amplify narratives based on fear. I totally get not trusting the vaccine, but as I non-expert I should be careful that I don't contribute to a sense that the vaccine is unsafe, if there's no good evidence that it isn't.

@mcread This is not to shut down a discussion. Talking about how we feel, even if it's not completely based in "facts" is important, valuable, and most of what makes the internet worth while.

But I guess there's a balance to be had. No man is an island.

@atoponce how come the CDC is not able to produce newer deaths data than 2018 ?

@mystik @atoponce @Horizon_Innovations @hicks
These could be a rare side effects from a vaccine! Or they could be unrelated coincidences. Hard to say from a random internet video. Regardless of which it is, there are non-negligible long term risks associated with COVID-19 (along with death). All studies (so far) indicate the risk of side-effects from the vaccines are quite small compared to letting a random bat-virus have its way with you.



1) we are at 1.5y in, looking at the stats, this rand bat-virus is hopefully pretty boring.
2) Risk of side-fxs on children (not even a risky demog. at first) are quite severe and even tho you could heal them if on time, as a responsible parent, that's a f# NO GO!
But, I'm not even about side-fxs, this vaccine narrative is just political BS to maintain or push us in a certain direction - and the Reason isn't be part of it.

@mystik @atoponce @Horizon_Innovations

@hicks I don't know if you have had a chance to look at the link I sent from the Mayo Clinic, but for many people, the effects of this virus anything but boring (permanent loss of smell/taste, heart and lung damage, ect.). I know it wasn't a big deal for you, but please have empathy for those that weren't so lucky.

To your point about children; in most countries that I'm aware of, the vaccine isn't approved for anyone younger that 16.

@hicks Finally, I understand that you feel that this is all political. I'm sure there's a lot of politics happening where you are right now. But please be assured that the whole world is having to deal with this, not just your political jurisdiction. Maybe this list of epidemics can help bring some more perspective (or just be interesting):


@hicks I was wrong, sorry! It looks like the CDC has changed their recommendation to anyone 12 and older. This was studied and looked promising, although I have read the reports that 7 US Teens had heart inflammation after getting Pfizer-Biontec. Parents should look at the scientific data available (and to what the experts are recommending) and make their own decision just like with anything else.

@awaspnest @atoponce @Horizon_Innovations @hicks

There is no "bat virus", it was never isolated". The time to believe in this whole fairy tale is over.

The so called "long term effects" are the same as the flu, EXACTLY THE SAME.

While there has been more than 5 thousands deaths of the vaccine in the first month. Stop being STUPID.


Actually, the symptoms are fairly distinct! Of course there's a lot of similarities too.


I guess I'm confused. Weren't we talking about long term effects? These seem like short term ones.

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