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Reminder for creators: if Stripe and PayPal are both available in your country, then you should connect *both* to your Liberapay account. Stripe is usually more convenient for donors, especially for those who don't have a PayPal account. On the other hand there are people who prefer PayPal because they see it as safer.

Head over to the “Payment Processors” page to view and connect payment accounts: liberapay.com/about/me/payment

@Liberapay Reminder that some creators don't like Paypal and therefore only allow Stripe payments no matter what's supported in their country 😛

@Liberapay Stripe seems to require being a company to use it..

@swedneck Stripe is designed for businesses but they also allow individuals and nonprofits to use their service wherever possible.

@Liberapay wait: are you saying I must add PayPal if users should be able to donate to me via that, and Stripe so they can use that? Then where do SEPA donations go to, as I cannot add my IBAN anywhere as an creator - but donators can use it?

@IzzyOnDroid Yes, you must add PayPal if you want your donors to be able to pay through PayPal, and you must add Stripe if you want your donors to be able to pay by card or direct debit directly from the Liberapay website.

@Liberapay thanks for clarification. Sorry to say so, but from the standpoint of privacy that's completely unacceptable for many creators, myself included.

Until now, I've left my account with you "pending", still hoping for a privacy friendly way to withdraw. You just wrote that will be impossible. A real pity, I very much liked Liberapay. But in that context I don't see how I'll ever be able to use my account again 🙁

@amolith @IzzyOnDroid Cryptocurrency is good for privacy (if you know what you are doing). But usability is mostly bad.

@felix @amolith check my profile. Satoshis gladly accepted in any amount 😀

I'm using different addresses for different things I do, eg my android site, my book server, my (free and open) android books... So I can see what people like the donation being used for, and add some work there.

So everybody, kick my bad conscience 😂

@amolith nothing I have tried. OpenCollective sounds promising, some of their instances even support SEPA. Like with Mastodon you can chose an instance suiting you. You can also start using crypto like Monero or Bitcoin... But those are not that widely used by the "average Joe". I've set up a wallet about 3 weeks ago, put donation links on my stuff - and got 50 cent until now...

@IzzyOnDroid I've got a Liberapay account right now and the services and stuff I run are completely funded through donations there. I do have Bitcoin and Litecoin addresses but haven't recieved anything from them yet. I also have a few other ways to donate but they all require PayPal and I seem to have been banned or something 🤣 I guess that's what I get for trying to make an account with fake information ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@IzzyOnDroid @amolith For the record, OpenCollective is also built on Stripe and PayPal.

@Liberapay @amolith but not solely. There are instances offering SEPA and others (at least that's what I've been told; I've not yet used it myself). Though their docs say different (only PayPal for payout). There are several open issues on this.

I did no research in it yet, and you might be right saying it won't fit me (yet) either. I've just stumbled upon it and put a marker. Tired of searching.

@IzzyOnDroid @amolith Open Collective is solely based on Stripe and PayPal. Some hosts may accept sending money to your bank account instead of through PayPal, but those transfers have to be done manually. In that scenario you don't use Stripe directly, but the initial payment is still processed by Stripe, so you're still using it indirectly.

@Liberapay @amolith here's the "I've been told" reference: github.com/opencollective/open

(That's the issue about alternative payments with the corresponding poll on which one users would prefer)

@IzzyOnDroid
Maybe @HackerGeno will be an adequate solution, if it actaully gets established. They at least plan to accept donations for there members in an easy an easy way and without high fees. Just hope they will care about privacy respecting payment and withdrawel options.
@amolith

@HackerGeno
Don't you plan to accept donations for your future members? So of course it would be an alternative to librepay for everyone, but it would be for creators who decide to become a member. @amolith

@IzzyOnDroid You're drawing weird conclusions from my response to your question.

@Liberapay why? You wrote I must use PayPal to accept from there, which I definitely don't want to do for privacy reasons. Same for Stripe. So which part did I misinterpret? Yes, I wonder how someone can fill his wallet via SEPA and which pot that would go to.

And please don't get me wrong: I really value what you're doing. But without being able to withdraw, I cannot really use it. That's what nags me. I'm not saying it's your fault.

@IzzyOnDroid There are no wallets anymore. Donors no longer fill wallets, and creators no longer withdraw from wallets. Instead donations go immediately to the PayPal or Stripe account of the recipient. The money can then be withdrawn from those accounts to a bank account (Stripe does that automatically).

@Liberapay I was aware of the "no more wallets" part. But not of the "direct counter parts". Thanks for letting me know. Unfortunately that cannot work for us "tin foils," so I'll have to look for some other way... 🙁

@IzzyOnDroid You were already looking for other ways. Your problem is the same it was 6 months ago, and it will stay the same until we add a third payment processor or you stop boycotting Stripe and/or PayPal.

@Liberapay as I won't do the latter, that leaves the former. The latter would be for a privacy proponent as if telling a doctor to shoot someone into the foot in order to get a patient (sorry for being that drastic).

As neither PayPal will suddenly become privacy friendly all of a sudden nor Stripe becoming desirable, that only leaves waiting. I sincerely wish you find a partner for this, so I can stay with you. But it doesn't look like that's happening soon. Good luck, though!

@IzzyOnDroid It looks to me like you're the one shooting yourself in the foot. You're boycotting Stripe without any solid reason, you just assume that it's an evil corporation.

Adding a third payment processor isn't a priority for us because right now it can't significantly improve our platform. The only potential gain would be for creators in European countries not supported by Stripe, at the cost of extra complexity.

@Liberapay I told you my reasons half a year ago. They haven't changed. What's "solid reasons" for one might be "gibberish" for another, true. But I'll definitely not use PayPal, and couldn't convince myself of using Stripe. I'm not alone with that. Others already have deleted their accounts because of that, see e.g. kuketz-blog.de/liberapay-aktue

I might be shooting myself in the foot – but at least I can look at myself in the mirror (again, no offense meant).

@Liberapay
I was quite interested in your platform, even if I didn't used it, but I have to agree with @IzzyOnDroid.
But this, the need for creators to use PayPal or/and Stripe to use your Platform, does not fit together with a 'Libre' Platform very well in my opinion. I think, you should reconsider this decision.
@IzzyOnDroid

@The_Observer6955 @IzzyOnDroid If you're saying that we should use libre payment processors, then you're asking for the impossible, because there are no libre payment processors.

@Liberapay @The_Observer6955 call it what you like. IMHO the problem is that you *completely* removed wallets – not only on the donors end, but also for creators. If you'd kept them for creators, you'd be able to set a limit for triggering a SEPA transaction (to avoid "micro transactions" and even to trigger optional automated payments).

No wallets, no "regular payments" – I must read again what would be the difference *connecting* Stripe or using it directly then. I admit, I'm confused on that one now.

@IzzyOnDroid @The_Observer6955 If you tried connecting a Stripe account instead of rejecting Stripe out of hand, then you would see that it's somewhat similar to having a wallet with automatic payouts to your bank account.

@Liberapay @The_Observer6955 I didn't say they wouldn't have useful services. But so has Google. Still, I wouldn't connect my calendar or addressbook with it. Nor my finances.

@IzzyOnDroid @The_Observer6955 Not wanting to give data to Google is reasonable, we all know that their business model is to accumulate and exploit private information. Stripe on the other hand is a typical payment processor, they make money by charging fees for the services they provide.

@Liberapay @The_Observer6955 @IzzyOnDroid
This is the real tragedy. Really wish there was a libre payment processor that could go toe to toe with Paypal and Stripe.

@Liberapay @IzzyOnDroid wait, what's the reason for that?

Isn't there a way for you to work "in the middle" for PayPal donors to donate to Stripe creators and vice versa? That would be especially useful for people like me who don't have Stripe available in their country 🌏

@badrihippo @IzzyOnDroid No, there are legal and technical barriers to bridging different payment processors.

Stripe and PayPal are competitors, they have no interest in making it easy to use each other's services.

@Liberapay @IzzyOnDroid oh dear, that's sad 😕

Is there any hope of things changing in the future?

@badrihippo @IzzyOnDroid There's always hope, but it could take a long time for things to change.

@Liberapay @badrihippo Maybe I miss something (as it sounds too easy), but: Reverting to your previous system/process would easily solve that. Donors fill their wallets from whatever source (Paypal, SEPA, Stripe), which get transferred to your bucket. Then their donations go out monthly from your bucket. Every now and then, you need to shuffle some "units" around between PP and S via SEPA. And having it in SEPA, you could even pay creators that way (setting a minimum amount for that if you wish). All happy.

@IzzyOnDroid from what I understand, they were using MangoPay as the backend for that, which suddenly bailed out on them. Maybe there are some implications/constraints preventing Liberapay from setting up such a system with PayPal/Stripe (@Liberapay, could you enlighten us?) 💸🤔

@badrihippo As previously stated, there are legal and technical barriers to bridging different payment processors. What @IzzyOnDroid thinks we should do would be illegal unless we obtained a license from the banking authority, but that's out of reach for a small nonprofit like Liberapay.

@Liberapay @badrihippo Yes, Mangopay was one thing (and I still wonder why they didn't kick Flattr along – or rather why they kicked LP at all), but that's a separate thing from the wallet system.

I knew I must have missed something. Didn't know that requires a banking license (especially as a wallet system was used before). Thanks for clarifying!

@Liberapay what kind of PayPal account would I need to use Liberapay?

I'm in India, and the PayPal website offers "individual" accounts (to pay for stuff online) and "business" accounts (to receive payments). Does that mean I have to go for business? 😕

@badrihippo Either should work, however business accounts have the advantage of supporting automatic currency conversion (see the warning at the bottom of liberapay.com/about/me/edit/cu).

@Liberapay ok, thanks. I guess I can start with a personal and then move on to business when I'm ready 🤔

@Liberapay how does this work for team accounts? What happens if one member only uses Stripe and the other only PayPal?

@badrihippo In that case the money from donors who choose PayPal as payment method will always go to the team member with the PayPal account, and the funds from the donors who choose the other payment methods will always go to the team member with the Stripe account.

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